CDE Podcast #005 - Harm Lagaay

00:00:00: The young designers are the best group of people you can think off, because they have this drive and passion.

00:00:12: And this urge to change but stay within design strategy for them is still so much

00:00:29: to do.

00:00:32: Hello and welcome to the CDE podcast.

00:00:35: today we're speaking with Ham Legay.

00:00:37: he's a legendary car designer perhaps best known for his work at Porsche where he masterminded countless iconic models including The Boxster, and the Carrera GT.

00:00:48: hello Ham it's very nice to meet you.

00:00:50: how are you today?

00:00:51: I'm fine!

00:00:52: Nice to be here.

00:00:53: thank you for the invitation.

00:00:55: We are delighted extraordinary body of work, but I'd like to begin at the beginning.

00:01:02: Where are you from originally and how far back can you trace your passion for automotive design?

00:01:10: Um...I'm Dutch-born But after i was born on the twenty eighth of December nineteen forty six And a few weeks after my birth.. ..i was already on my way to Ecuador in Quito because my father worked for Shell.

00:01:33: They weren't called Shell in those days, but eventually it was Shell and we stayed there a few years then went to Venezuela In Maracaipo And then made big change.

00:01:51: We went to Brunei.

00:01:54: I hope you know where that is the Sultan of Brunei.

00:01:57: The famous

00:01:58: sultan with his famous car collection, yeah?

00:02:00: Yeah

00:02:00: which is not.

00:02:01: actually he wasn't that fond of cars...

00:02:07: What?!

00:02:08: No it's its brother.

00:02:09: Oh!

00:02:10: His brother is the guy who actually started collecting hundreds of cars but has been expelled from their countries.

00:02:21: But I think most of the cars are still there And the Brunei, the Sultan of Bruneis has the same age and I think he had been born in the same month as I am.

00:02:35: Anyway we stayed there for quite a long period.

00:02:39: so my...I returned to Netherlands when i was twelve.

00:02:50: So my youth have spent other countries than in Holland and when I went back to Holland, i had to learn to write Dutch which wasn't easy because I went to English primary schools.

00:03:13: So after I came back in Holland but you have to say Netherlands these days my parents were still abroad.

00:03:26: So I went to boarding schools and that's where my passion, And...I thought also My great interest in my talent for cars started not much before That.

00:03:48: Then i went to several high school schools In Holland and I Started my first job at a company called Ole Slager, which doesn't mean anything to anybody right now.

00:04:05: But they were writing publishing books workshop books on do it yourself manuals for people who wanted to work on their cars themselves and after that I went into technical documentation with Simca which is a French company.

00:04:31: And then I really, but all the time I wanted to become a car designer.

00:04:40: so...I was doing privately all this sketching work and i didn't know of any automotive design schools.

00:04:53: in those days nobody knew about them except for one in Pasadena Art Center.

00:05:02: But I hadn't, didn't know much about that.

00:05:06: Royal College of Art had just started with two people and i Didn't Know About That.

00:05:13: so I'm an out-of-the-duct.

00:05:16: So I've Learned It And Taught it Myself.

00:05:22: Then To Get A bit More Experience I Spent My Weekends and my Holidays in Italy and where I couldn't get a job, although i wanted the job at the design companies.

00:05:41: But in those days you couldn't Get A Working Permit In Italy which changed of course nowadays And so I had friends At Gia Fiat Giorgio Giugiaro, but anyway what we did was in my holidays I Was sketching and the designers which i knew there.

00:06:13: Which were working for fiat or dia They gave me some advice And support.

00:06:22: so like My portfolio became a bit more complete.

00:06:29: But I didn't know, of course how much and how good it was.

00:06:37: And then one day I saw an advertisement that Porsche was looking for designers so i applied a job there drove down to Stuttgart or Stuttgart-Suffenhaus where Porsche is.

00:06:57: they had holidays and Germany has a lot of holidays, so I left my portfolio at the gate which was a bit risky.

00:07:08: And then i got a letter saying that they would like to talk to me further... ...and eventually I got a job!

00:07:20: So in September nineteen seventy-one I joined Porsche.. ..and stayed there for seven half years And the main achievement I had.

00:07:34: there was the Porsche nine to four, a nine twenty-four.

00:07:40: We worked on some racing cars aerodynamics with the aerodynamicists of course but also the liveries and i did a little bit work on the nine twenty eight because Porsche was still doing design work for outside companies.

00:08:08: I wasn't involved in that as well, so when those projects like the Porsche nine twenty-four and a nine twenty eight and the G model nine eleven were finished... ...I thought it was time to move on And I moved on and went to Ford in Cologne.

00:08:33: Because the big design exterior, design studio of Ford is in cologne!

00:08:41: The interior design studios are near London... ...and I worked there for eight-and-a-half years was involved in Escort, Schwerer Sierra, Gosworth.

00:09:05: The Fiesta and Granada.

00:09:09: successes.

00:09:11: lots of work but most important of all I learned what design process and design management was

00:09:23: so there's a little bit more operational efficiency at Ford.

00:09:27: yes

00:09:27: management because

00:09:28: Porsche.

00:09:30: Young people will think of Porsche as this endlessly successful profitable company because that's kind Of what it's been in the twenty-first century, but of course It was different times for much of the late twentieth century.

00:09:40: I would seem like a company That is constantly in a state of near disaster wasn't it?

00:09:45: Well at the beginning

00:09:46: from the seventies they were already and one particular disaster And that's why the nine twenty four and then nine twenty eight work worked on and started.

00:10:03: But they were in trouble, yes but both of those cars which we call the trans axle Porsches next to the rear engine for a nine eleven.

00:10:19: They made Porsche successful again.

00:10:23: They certainly did And you know people attribute success during that time or surviving, I should say to some of the thinking you did and specifically around making cars in a slightly more economical way.

00:10:40: In terms of part-sharing, designing your car which is going serve next car?

00:10:44: Yes!

00:10:45: Part sharing on the nine twenty four was quite extreme lots of VW and Audi parts Which made the car absolutely cost efficient and much more cost-interested than the nine eleven, then the nine twenty eight.

00:11:09: The Nine Twenty Eight was completely new no carryover parts whatsoever from whatever car.

00:11:17: so those three cars made Porsche successful again.

00:11:25: but nevertheless I decided because I wanted to learn more about design management, Ford was the company to go.

00:11:37: The American Design Studios in those days were way ahead of design management and presentation technology.

00:11:53: What were

00:11:59: some examples of that?

00:12:00: what did you see there, but You hadn't been doing a Porsche.

00:12:03: It's the way how advanced design is done with whom which designers and How they present their cars And when.

00:12:19: then They move on to production series production Design and they benefit from the advanced design studios.

00:12:32: So you had different type of designers in the Advanced Design Studios, And we have different ones in the Production Design Studios.

00:12:42: You add lots of designers there.

00:12:46: An actual fact which is an interesting detail Ford was looking for a lot of designers those days And they attracted various designers from various countries.

00:13:05: An actual fact, we had more than twenty nationalities one day.

00:13:11: so... We have designers for every possible country you can think of.

00:13:16: My guess is that's a good thing because obviously there are some language barriers and communication barriers but on the other hand just having lots different points view around the world surely would be something to make interesting work right?

00:13:28: I'm not sure whether the nationality plays a role there, but certainly their background and their attitude.

00:13:39: But most important of all where did they come from?

00:13:42: From which particular schools?

00:13:44: that came?

00:13:46: because i was an autodiduct self-taught... ...but in those years were already design schools.

00:13:57: And that's where, in those days the designers came from.

00:14:03: An actual fact I think looking back together with Bruno Sacco who was the chief designer for Mercedes-Benz a very long time he also self taught a designer which

00:14:17: is just unimaginable today right?

00:14:19: Can't all to Porsche leave your portfolio outside of the gate and end up designing sports cars, right?

00:14:27: No I wouldn't advise anybody to

00:14:29: do it.

00:14:29: It's not a good approach anymore!

00:14:33: But in the years when i started...it was one of the ways and for some people..the only way nowadays you have to go to the best schools there are.

00:14:48: so after Ford which was eight-and-a-half years we're talking

00:14:57: back to Porsche.

00:14:58: And

00:15:00: I got an offer from BMW who are here around the corner, they decided which was a courageous move... ...to set up a satellite studio more or less next door which was an idea of the chairman on board, very efficient to have him start a company like this.

00:15:37: And they called it, funny name BMW Technic with T and K at end Our job Only innovative things.

00:15:59: And which was quite a risk for me to go through this small company, Which hardly existed that the building... ...which is around the corner here Was empty.

00:16:15: there wasn't nothing absolutely Nothing.

00:16:17: and This is advanced design work.

00:16:18: so you're not working on the next model right?

00:16:20: You're kind of working on designing only.

00:16:24: we just had to think about new Things.

00:16:29: But they only had an empty building, so I was very skeptical.

00:16:40: I almost turned around and went back to Ford but then you know... Then i can do it my way!

00:16:51: And I was the only guy.

00:16:59: In a very short time, I could get my favorite talented designers to join me in this risky project.

00:17:14: But they also liked the idea of doing only advanced design and This was...I did this for three-and-a-half years!

00:17:25: I built a whole new studio from zero including furniture air conditioning, all the tools.

00:17:37: Everything absolutely everything.

00:17:39: so I became a man designer of Jack-of-all trades

00:17:47: very good

00:17:51: and I bought whatever i thought was efficient and Good!

00:17:58: And had beautiful small studio around forty people modelers, and of course the designers.

00:18:08: And I had Truman Color... It's practically everything!

00:18:13: ...I add super people a team which i can really think back about with uh very proud of that period.

00:18:24: Yeah like an imagine?

00:18:27: The main project we did there was the said one or Z-One as you may call it.

00:18:35: So that was an advanced car, very advanced and very innovative.

00:18:41: And we had a building where we could build it but only for limited amount of time.

00:18:48: so We built eight thousand of them.

00:18:53: But now they are classics.

00:18:55: They certainly are With still to this day the most interesting doors any car ever.

00:19:01: It's no surprise to learn that a car like that came from a studio, because you can't help but feel that HQ just wouldn't have the kind of freedom to innovate something as unusual.

00:19:16: Now we were thinking about freedom on four wheels and push out your cigarette by lowering the door days, the British sports cars.

00:19:33: Is

00:19:33: that thinking behind the doors?

00:19:34: That

00:19:34: was a thinking wow!

00:19:36: That's very of its time.

00:19:37: as design brief

00:19:39: and then to make it even more adventurous I thought...I think to get myself in the right mood i got myself a Lotus Seven or rather a Donkervoort which is the Dutch version of the Lotus seven.

00:19:57: but It Was A Great Team great projects.

00:20:05: And then my boss, who was head of this particular subsidiary he was asked to become a board member for research and development as soon And as soon as he was there, He said I think i need harm.

00:20:41: So at the end of nineteen eighty-eight... ...I joined Porsche as Chief Designer

00:20:50: With all this incredible experience under your belt.

00:20:52: now having worked for a super organized business in Ford and then working well just done everything from sound to things at BMW that sounds like a really good variety of work experience.

00:21:06: to return to Portia?

00:21:07: Yes,

00:21:07: definitely.

00:21:09: And that was also what I applied into the design studio because the design studios in those days were they had hardly budget and hardly any projects.

00:21:27: The company is again difficult

00:21:35: Quoted in previous interviews as saying, you came back to Porsche and looked at the... It was a nine-six four generation.

00:21:41: Nine eleven that time And kind of said well not very much has changed since I last here.

00:21:45: No it's actually bit worse Because when i joined Porsche they were very proud.

00:21:55: They say Mr Lagai your new company car The nine sixty four.

00:22:02: And I drove off and thought wait a minute I've been away for sixteen years, what happened?

00:22:15: Obviously everybody loves that car now.

00:22:18: They

00:22:18: certainly do

00:22:19: And they are absolutely right and i love it as well.

00:22:24: but It wasn't the car to bring back Porsche into profitability.

00:22:34: The nine twenty eight was selling a very low numbers.

00:22:38: the nine twenty four Was also at the end of its cycles upon.

00:22:44: all.

00:22:44: those cars were extremely expensive in production And they were made for die-hards and For people who love them, but you can't run a business on on those numbers.

00:23:02: so We had to start completely all over again, which meant that the nine sixty-four had become renovated.

00:23:16: New suspension new design bits and pieces... Which made it extremely attractive again.

00:23:26: but we were still not making money on it.

00:23:30: even if people love it today It wasn't the car which brought back Porsche into business.

00:23:39: So I want to talk about Nine-Nine Six in Boxer at a moment, but obviously nine-nine three came straight after nine six four.

00:23:45: based on that scenario At The Time what was the approach to nine nine Three when you started?

00:23:49: That project i guess priority number one Was this thing needs To make the company money right?

00:23:57: Yes But it was more complicated than that because that car alone would also not be able to save Porsche and we were in real difficulties.

00:24:12: We were laying off people, there were other car companies looking at us.

00:24:23: I wouldn't say they had plans on buying Porsche but Not doing that well.

00:24:33: So the only way to get out of a situation like that with people around us was To move forward as quickly as possible.

00:24:45: so the nine the nine nine three Was an immediate project from the start but immediately Parallel, too That we had to find something else.

00:25:00: And so that was, we had several things on our mind.

00:25:09: But the fact that two sports cars one mid-engine and one rear engine became reality let's say, future-orientated pairing.

00:25:44: And we started with that immediately

00:25:50: and

00:25:50: I hired as many people as possible the best people i could get in the shortest amount of time –the best modelers– the Yes.

00:26:07: And then in the middle, why we were doing this?

00:26:15: The boss of research and development he came up with idea part sharing on two cars.

00:26:27: I just mentioned.

00:26:30: that meant which was a radical those days.

00:26:35: actually it still is radical.

00:26:37: I don't know of any company, even in back-in the old days where thirty three percent... ...of two cars are exact.

00:26:52: Are the same but the car is completely different.

00:26:55: and this isn't nine nine three excuse me nine nine six in Boxster correct?

00:26:59: yes yeah very different cars.

00:27:02: um you they obviously share some

00:27:03: Historically speaking, absolutely unique.

00:27:06: Never seen before never done before.

00:27:11: and it also meant for the design studio that if you with experience I had especially from Ford when you start a new project.

00:27:25: do don't come up one proposal to find out which direction you want to go?

00:27:36: No, he wanted three or four.

00:27:39: But because the two cars were always together and shared that same front end then even the same doors this meant a lot of clay modeling.

00:27:52: so we expanded our studio as big possible.

00:27:57: We were knee high in clay modeling.

00:28:03: it was an extreme period.

00:28:06: And in the middle of that extreme design activity, we thought which is let's say... The dream of every car designer.

00:28:25: What about doing a small compact mid-engine Porsche again?

00:28:31: Like the race Porsche and the fifties?

00:28:38: And that's where a show car started.

00:28:47: We have very small budget, and little time... ...and we finished it in time for the Detroit Motor Show in nineteen ninety-three years.

00:29:07: Anna was just an amazing bombshell!

00:29:11: Because everybody in Detroit, the space you get as an automotive company for your stand depends on how successful you are.

00:29:34: And we were not successful...

00:29:36: So you pushed into a little corner at the

00:29:38: back row?

00:29:38: We were in the last corner of The Detroit Motor Show.

00:29:44: people couldn't even find us!

00:29:46: We didn't have light.

00:29:48: I... we had to go into town and buy some lights, spotlights.

00:29:55: The journalists were extremely curious to find out.

00:30:02: is Porsche bankrupt?

00:30:06: What does the future going be?

00:30:09: they didn't know that way working on the nine-nine-six in the Boxster behind the curtains and they suddenly saw that we had something to show on a fantastic silver cloth over there.

00:30:32: And Porsche management were all expecting the most difficult questions at the opening of The Detroit Motor Show, but they thought wait a minute look at this fantastic car which is covered up Still, so they didn't have any questions.

00:31:02: So when we unwrapped the car They were just knocked out.

00:31:09: Everybody thought We are back.

00:31:14: There were.

00:31:15: there were several famous in those days Car chiefs bosses Who came over and said yeah you guys have to write Well, I have the right car.

00:31:32: So that was the birth of not just or a rebirth of Porsche but also which is for me as chief designer The most important thing.

00:31:46: it gave us design theme For cars we were working on Which public didn't know anything about.

00:32:01: So that show car gave us the direction.

00:32:06: It was of course a bit too small.

00:32:10: We had to make it a bit larger, but then we eventually continued with their pair at those two cars and The first car we introduced was the Boxster In nineteen ninety seven, I think it was.

00:32:30: And then one year later the nine-nine six.

00:32:34: and Then the next step Was that Porsche said two cars alone is not enough.

00:32:46: we have to think about a third model line?

00:32:52: We started an extremely interesting exploration, for expedition maybe.

00:33:03: To find out what could be the right car for Porsche next to sports cars?

00:33:10: And we looked at every possible direction and finally We found out wait a minute...we have lots of customers in the US especially.

00:33:26: They have a nine eleven In The Garage And next to it, a brand Cherokee.

00:33:36: Why can't we do an SUV?

00:33:40: Yeah and this is the birth of the performance SUV which now enormous segment in car industry for every luxury brand has an SUV offering.

00:33:49: that whole idea originates from KN.

00:33:52: It's huge moment time for automotive industry.

00:33:57: You know, it's incredible to think that whole period.

00:34:00: That whole period where things start to improve for Porsche starts with that show car at the Detroit Motor Show It some you've not been afraid of do pretty radical things through your career and I always think about.

00:34:13: but you know as talking to Phil Zach from Chevrolet yesterday about working on Corvette And the pressure that must come with working on an iconic nameplate when there's all this history, this expectation.

00:34:24: This fan base that love this car and anything you change they're going to be upset about.

00:34:30: but you changed a lot of things.

00:34:32: You know, nine-nine six first air.

00:34:33: we've

00:34:34: changed so many.

00:34:35: first

00:34:35: water cooled or even just changing the shape of the headlights.

00:34:38: people went crazy.

00:34:40: yeah.

00:34:41: But the the headlights which were criticized in The First Years For us, first of all the headlamp was shown on The Boxster Show Car in nineteen ninety three with a great success.

00:35:01: There was absolutely nobody who said we don't like to headlamps and on the contrary they say it's fantastic.

00:35:12: but then...we didn't have any idea!

00:35:18: We thought okay two cars which are very different in technical layout and package.

00:35:27: Having the same front end, okay that's a bit risky but it is nice shape.

00:35:38: most important of all we have to make money first.

00:35:43: so cost efficiency was one primary goal those two cars.

00:35:53: And the fact that we had such profitability on both cars made us believe nobody will have a problem with those headlights, but obviously nine eleven owners they said wait a minute... They don't.

00:36:19: They're not aware of this cost efficiency, which was absolutely necessary and mandatory for us to get back into a cost efficient company.

00:36:35: So we were a little bit surprised that they criticized the headlamps.

00:36:42: but And then, of course we changed them completely different on the Nine-Nine Seven.

00:36:53: But just to give you an idea what the cost differences between two are because the nine eleven and nine six headlamps have five functions in one module.

00:37:15: nobody has done that Ever even today.

00:37:19: you can just pop it out and replace the whole thing.

00:37:20: You'll

00:37:21: just put in a few seconds.

00:37:23: so everybody loved The production people loved that.

00:37:30: But then I'm eleven people said wait a minute.

00:37:34: That's a bit far-fetched anyway, so I don't.

00:37:40: i'm very proud of those that headlamp design from a design point of view, and most of all it gave us profitability with many other things which were on the front end of both cars.

00:38:04: And as soon as Porsche came back into profitability levels we were able to change which we did.

00:38:14: And do fun stuff, like make v-ten supercars that go on to become legends?

00:38:20: Yes!

00:38:20: That was fun as well.

00:38:22: You know when you're back into business with those two cars the Boxer and a nine eleven uh...and your thinking about third model line became the Cayenne.

00:38:39: but so many other directions we could have gone to, but we chose the SUV because FeeW also wanted it.

00:38:51: So there was a very strong collaboration between Fee W and Porsche on both of those cars an actual fact which is unique.

00:39:07: Of course they paid us to develop both cars.

00:39:13: Well, that's the best part has a perfect situation.

00:39:19: so we were making money on the Cayenne almost immediately and then one of my ambitions was uh...to have a satellite studio.

00:39:33: And I always thought well wait a minute.

00:39:36: twenty five other companies have satellite studios around the world, especially west coast of America.

00:39:45: So why don't we have that?

00:39:48: And we got the opportunity to take over a studio from Sam Yong.

00:39:57: and no, Samsung sorry... That's where we started the career at GT.

00:40:07: so But that car also came about because Porsche was thinking we may be back into business and have successful, profitable and affordable.

00:40:26: And fantastic two cars.

00:40:31: but We want to show the world that we are all so best in a supercar market.

00:40:37: Absolutely!

00:40:39: would be an unimaginable project ten years earlier for Porsche.

00:40:43: There will just no way it was earned the right to make something like that by hard work of...

00:40:48: Absolutely, I mean in early nineties a project like this wouldn't have been possible and Dr Wiederking head of Porsche said he didn't want any money on it which we did not.

00:41:07: but Project is a very special project means a lot to me, but it also happened in an extremely intense and different situation time location And which people should I choose?

00:41:30: To do a car like that.

00:41:34: Yeah absolutely I mean, it's probably my favorite car of all time.

00:41:39: And actually there is one in Motor World... ...I opened my curtains this morning to my hotel room and there was a white Carrera GT staring at me through my hotel window which doesn't happen very often.

00:41:47: so that was nice way to start the day.

00:41:50: Especially when you started up?

00:41:52: Oh yeah!

00:41:53: Absolutely There has most incredible sound

00:41:58: To this day.

00:41:59: i think The Best

00:42:00: One Of The Best.

00:42:04: It's design wise.

00:42:07: It's aging very nicely.

00:42:10: Very elegant, it doesn't lose its identity.

00:42:19: design identity as quickly as others.

00:42:24: I'd like to ask you about that because A lot of your designs have aged very nicely.

00:42:29: Zed won not as appreciated it should've been, now very desirable As we discussed, nine-nine six nine eleven.

00:42:34: Some people got angry about the headlights.

00:42:36: Now everyone wants a nine-nine-six.

00:42:37: Yeah

00:42:37: they got angry and in the meantime We were selling them like right hits.

00:42:41: Right exactly I didn't know at the same time But from a design standpoint certainly People who come around to crack eggs I've always wondered, as a designer do you think about the kind of how it will age?

00:42:54: Do you try and just make something that's contemporary in the moment.

00:42:57: or do you Think About How A Piece Of Design Of Yours Is Going To Look In Ten Years And Twenty Years And Thirty Years?

00:43:06: I think while You're Working On The Project.

00:43:11: You're Not Particularly Thinking About That But Your Thinking As My Strategy is to make, go the limits of what design language can allow you.

00:43:34: What is the maximum you get out of a company's design language?

00:43:42: for historical reasons?

00:43:45: because they had a particular model which was successful over very long period.

00:43:53: And the design language of Porsche is worth gold, I mean if you don't treat it well we are in the wrong position.

00:44:07: so... The design language is so strong and it's applied to the cars nowadays, more or more in such a successful way.

00:44:24: You know that you have to do it but want to do It!

00:44:30: To just give an example if you take young designers You let them work on a particular Porsche model, but they are not living and working around or in the company where Porsche is.

00:44:59: They will not get it.

00:45:02: at least that's the lesson I went through

00:45:06: something about being there.

00:45:08: you have

00:45:08: to live again breathing it.

00:45:10: in order

00:45:11: to answer your question to look how far and How conscious are you be in looking into the future?

00:45:19: I have to say first of all, You Have To Be There.

00:45:47: you will understand where it started, how it started in the... In nineteen forty-eight and How this form language actually developed subtly sometimes more courageous.

00:46:09: Sometimes more conservative but It's just that you are convinced That if you do a new Porsche It has to be something which belongs to Porsche and will be something, which still looks good in the future.

00:46:30: My last question was going to what your golden piece of advice is for young designers when they ask you but I think that might have just answered their questions there?

00:46:40: Well... That's a very complex question.

00:46:51: Since five years now, more than five years I'm still working again.

00:47:23: Because I'm that much older, i have to compete with the young designers.

00:47:33: And... ...I can now look and feel how it is what they have to do.. ..and what- How They Have To Think & What They Have Too Feel To Be Successful sensitive to the company for which you, For whom they are working.

00:48:04: My experience helps but The young design.

00:48:08: I love young designers Young Designers of the best group Of people.

00:48:14: You can think off because They have this drive and This passion And urge to change, but to stay within the design strategy of the company they're working for.

00:48:36: My advice to them is there's still so much to do.

00:48:42: it's a never-ending story I think especially now where design has become more or less the most important selling point.

00:48:59: At least it's something what a customer looks at first of all, if its right then they move on to other interesting things which that particular brand can offer.

00:49:15: but still the visual thing is the first step.

00:49:19: so I can only encourage young designers to find out as soon as possible if they have the talent and develop their talents, start becoming a guard designer quickly.

00:49:44: Use your youths in everything that comes with it right?

00:49:47: That hunger and that kind of reckless abandon.

00:49:50: Yes!

00:49:51: They must have hunger right

00:50:10: way.